Book Discussion: First Comes Love, Then Comes Money

Bethany and Scott Palmer, 'the Money Couple,' offer ways that couples can talk constructively about finances.

Interview by W. Scott Brown | posted 12/04/2009

These days, the financial stress put on married couples is higher than ever. Outcomes editor in chief W. Scott Brown recently interviewed Bethany and Scott Palmer, also known as "the Money Couple," about their latest book, First Comes Love, Then Comes Money (HarperOne, 2009), to learn more about how couples can deal with financial conflict before it leads to crisis. The Palmers are financial advisers who help lead the retirement planning company Envoy Financial, which serves some 650 ministries and 12,000 clients.

What's the core message of First Comes Love, Then Comes Money?

Bethany: We want to help save relationships. According to several studies, some 75 percent of divorced people cite money problems as the reason their marriages ended. We know that solving these problems can go a long way in helping couples stay together—and be happy about it.

Scott: We're financial planners, so we've met with thousands of couples who are having some kind of money crisis. In nearly every situation, the money isn't the problem. The problem is that couples simply don't know how to communicate about their finances in healthy, productive ways. This book is about helping couples develop strong financial communication skills.

At the same time, we want to give our readers hope that they can recover from whatever financial crisis they are in by working together. They just need someone to show them how and help them believe they can do it. We believe there isn't a relationship that can't be saved when both partners are willing to make real changes in the way they communicate about money.

What inspired the book?

Scott: Bethany and I have 35 years of combined experience in financial planning. We've sat with couples and prepared the perfect budget, laid out the perfect retirement plan, gotten college paid for and houses bought—and then watched those couples show up six months later to divide their assets, because they are getting divorced and blaming their financial problems for the breakup. But the real problem wasn't the money; it was a lack of financial communication that typically leads to something we call "financial infidelity."

That's a powerful phrase. What does it mean?

Scott: Financial infidelity is anything you hide from your spouse, from having secret credit cards or stashes of cash, to fudging on how much you spent at the grocery store, to controlling your spouse's spending, to draining the retirement account to pay for your new car. We meet with a lot of couples who think a little lie here or a secret checking account there is no big deal. But that's the kind of stuff that ruins relationships.

Bethany: How does a physical affair typically start? By connecting emotionally with someone other than your spouse—something small and seemingly harmless. The same thing happens with financial infidelity. You say you spent $150 at the mall but you really spent $200. Pretty soon you have your own credit card that he or she doesn't know about, and pretty soon you have a whole secret life. We see it creep up on couples little by little. Before long they have creditors calling, or their car is getting repossessed, and they have no idea what happened.

How do couples root out financial infidelity before it gets to that point?

Bethany: They have to own up to it. That's a huge step. But if couples truly want their relationships to last and to get their financial lives turned around, they don't have a choice. For some couples, it might not be more than an avoidance issue: you dread talking to your spouse about money, so you just don't. Other couples might be flat-out lying and hiding money. We came up with a Financial Relationship Index (FRI) to help couples figure out how much financial infidelity is in their relationship (FRI is available at TheMoneyCouple.com). You can't end it until you identify it.

We know this is hard work. But we also know you can't have a healthy financial relationship without honesty and trust. You are in a partnership. How you handle your finances, how you talk about your finances, is symbolic of your relationship. The more couples we talk to, the more we see that the way they handle money echoes the way they handle other parts of their relationship. If there's a lack of trust or honesty in their finances, there is most likely a lack of trust or honesty in the rest of their relationship. If you have a perfect budget and a lousy marriage, you have missed the point.

How do couples develop stronger financial communication?

Scott: It starts with the relationship. Those in the financial planning industry tend to put the cart before the horse. They come up with great tools and put them in the hands of people who have no idea how to use them. So we decided to give them different tools, something that would help them thrive as a couple, no matter what kind of financial situation they are in.

We have five basic tools every couple can use, from engaged couples to couples who have been married for 50 years. We even have a catchy acronym—MONEY—to help people remember these tools: 1. Measure financial infidelity with the FRI; 2. Own your money personality and understand your spouse's money personality; 3. Nurture your relationship by learning to fight fair; 4. Event: Do the money dump, an exercise where couples sit down to talk about the pros and cons of their finances and their financial relationship; and 5. Your Money Huddle, which involves regular, planned conversations about your finances so you stay on the same page and work together.

You mentioned money personalities. What are those?

Bethany: They are five basic ways people think about money. There's the Saver, the Spender, the Risk Taker, the Security Seeker, and the Flyer. Most people have both a primary money personality and a secondary money personality. We find that understanding money personalities really helps couples get to the root of their financial conflicts.

Scott: Learning about your and your spouse's money personality not only helps you communicate, it also helps you extend grace to each other. If Bethany spends some money and it's more than we agreed we could spend, I can show her some grace and understanding because I know she's a Spender. She's not stupid or ignorant or trying to tick me off. She gets a rush from spending money. That doesn't mean she gets to do whatever she wants with our money. It means I can cut her some slack.

We stress that couples learn how to compromise, which is the real secret to financial health. But you can't compromise unless you communicate. If you're a Saver and your spouse is a Spender, don't tell him he can't spend any money because you have this dandy budget that your best friend, the financial planner, worked up for you. That's going to lead to failure every time. Instead, find ways to compromise. Say you can't afford to spend $300 a month over your expenses but you can spend $200. You've created a win-win situation.

Bethany: We talked to one couple in which the wife was irritated that her husband had gone over their budget by buying an expensive travel mug. Pretty soon it comes out that this poor guy had bought the mug 25 years ago. She's been annoyed at him for 25 years over a coffee mug! Did he blow their budget? Maybe a little. Was it worth 25 years of resentment and tension? Of course not. If this couple had known how to talk about their finances, if they had known how to compromise so they could both have the kind of life they wanted, they could have saved themselves 25 years of petty arguments.

Scott: Every money personality has strengths and weaknesses. When couples learn how their money personalities can complement each other, they can completely change their financial communication and get their financial relationship back on track.

You often speak to large churches and ministry organizations about finances. How does improving financial communication impact giving?

Scott: One of the common issues churches and nonprofits face is that couples rarely agree on how much to give. Since they don't want to create problems, the church or organization will usually go with the lower number. But when couples know how to talk about their money, and when organizations and churches help couples communicate about money in healthy ways, giving will increase. If one person wants to give $20,000 and the other is comfortable with only $10,000, if the couple communicates well, they will most likely figure out how to compromise and give $17,000.

How would the principles in your book translate for ministry leaders?

Bethany: In our company, Envoy Financial, we know each other's money personalities. That helps us talk about our company's finances in a productive way. When we need to cut back, we know the Savers can help us figure out how. When we have growth decisions to make, we pull in the Security Seekers and the Risk Takers to help us see more than one perspective.

Scott: Let's say you have a Saver on the finance committee at your church, and you need to move forward on a big financial decision. When you know it is torture for the Saver to spend money, you can listen to her concerns with more grace and empathy. You can find middle ground. And she might save you some serious trouble down the road.

If you have a committee of Risk Takers, they'll be nodding their heads after five minutes of conversation, ready to add on a new wing or hire a new staff member without thinking through potential risks. The money personalities can balance each other out and work together to make better decisions.

Bethany: When you know how people think about money, you can tap into their strengths in ways that can completely transform your organization. It works in marriages, and it works in ministry.

For more innovative financial communication resources, visit TheMoneyCouple.com.